problems with the trinity

But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. By who??? You pastor are denying the Son of God. People who submit solutions to a problem will be acknowledged, and if you've never submitted before, please make sure your solution contains your name and geographic location. The Case: 1. the radical monotheism of Deuteronomy (4.35, 39)and the Shema (Deut 6.4-5) 2. if Jesus was a Jew then he should agree with Judaism’s core creed? God exalted Yeshua. The scripture says so!! If I have missed or misunderstood Kel’s arguments, anyone who reads… Like you well stated, I need to study more. If you subtract from what is written there you will lose your eternal life. That’s why He says “the glory that I had”. It is a doctrine that was created specifically so people who believe many different things can say they believe in the same doctrine. Couldn’t get any plainer. He is Gods Anointed . Your not thinking deeply enough about what happened. The Centrality of the Trinity. If Jesus is not the ONE and ONLY GOD, than there are two of them, and there’s only one. I’ve mentioned several problems with the King James Version in previous posts. Christ is His own Father and His own Son. Again, the smallest iota of logic dictates that a son is not his own father. Arguably the most significant set of problems has to do with the text that the translators were translating. For more information on this most important topic, please go to our congregational website, “The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father…” where’s the controversy over the three-in-one God? The big question we need to ask ourselves is: WHAT IS THE UTILITY OF TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE FOR SATAN’S PURPOSES? (Colossians 2;9,10) God bless you to hear and receive the truth. That poor holy spirit guy he just doesnt get any respect at all does he. 373 Postmodernism 4: Cross-Cultural Conversations, 372 Postmodernism 3: Postmodernism’s Effect Today (Jacob Ballard), 371 Postmodernism 2: Modernism vs. Postmodernism (Jacob Ballard), 370 Postmodernism 1: Worldview (Jacob Ballard), Interview 34: From Pentecostal to Messianic Unitarian (Daniel Calcagno), Five Hundred: From Martin Luther to Joel Osteen, the radical monotheism of Deuteronomy (4.35, 39)and the Shema (Deut 6.4-5). How can it get any plainer. if Jesus was a Jew then he should agree with Judaism’s core creed? thank the Lord , I thank the MOST HIGH. Ok so it’s a lot to answer. Pastor its not me saying this the scriptures do. I prefer the first answer but He wasn’t fully glorified until after He was resurrected. The volume of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God are separate beings is overwhelming. enjoys a prominent place in the creed and, as we shall see, cannot be ignored in a treatment of the logical problem of the Trinity. Its ridiculous. Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. If you are a Unitarian, you believe that the Son is the Father manifested in flesh (which is what you are arguing against ). 5. We say that here to ! Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. When you compare Rev. If this scripture means what it says you don’t have eternal life because you are calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself. Yes, of course you would. It might be that we are talking about to different things. It is the foundation of the work of the Cross. There’s your hierarchy, brother! Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it. No longer equal to God, but obedient. Those terms are Oneness or Modalist. Pastor I pray you come into the knowledge of the truth and confess that Jesus the the Son of the Almighty God!! Well believing that Jesus is God is what makes you die in your sins because you don’t believe he is Gods Son. It gets very confusing saying Yeshua is God, or part of an impossible to comprehend God-concept, yet He prays to God repeatedly throughout scripture. Thrust your arm inside someone and there right there looking at you. Can you please give me any other explanation apart from the JWS . But this is an interpretation so we don’t set foundations on interpretations. Total lie. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. I had already failed to do that and gave up on it. JN 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. “God with us” or Emmanuel simply means “God is with us” as in the context “if God be for us, who can be against us”. I mean have you ever considered these scriptures? “who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” He was equal to God?…. A blantant lie if this is God Almighty. Now, don’t get me wrong! Christ is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us. Well, he said the LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS sent him. JN 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. And if you think Thomas stuck his arm inside of the Almighty God that’s about the most loony thing I have ever heard of. Either…The person we’re explaining it to will think that God simply changes from one to the other at different times and under different circumstances (water). how would this work in a hierarchy? And can you know where I lack, if you don’t know what (or think I know)? 1st John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit 6. Immediately, though, we run into a problem. But lets keep going. Hi, thanks for the comment! Consider, Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. I totally agree with this sentence of yours: “You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one.” but the following sentence negates the prior “The father, son and holy spirit equal one God.” The scriptures show a clear hierarchy between Yahweh and Yeshua and both Yahweh and Yeshua have the power to send the Spirit. problems with the 'trinity' « on: May 16, 2008, 10:24:44 PM » the bible seems to be pretty clear about 'god the father' and 'the coming of the holy spirit' and, it would seem, the divinity of jesus, why are universalists so opposed to the idea of the trinity? And God does not anoint himself. This doctrine teaches that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same entity, until they aren’t. He does not pray to Himself and apparently the Father’s will is different from the Son’s will. No one in the whole bible says “Jesus is the Almighty God” Where is someone confessing this. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. The same cultural position exists in the Philippians verse. It is impossible for Jesus to be Yahwey. Geee didnt Paul have it right? The comments by pastor Hunter illustrate the great difficulty we have in explaining the correct role/position of Jesus. This is also what Christ meant when he said, “if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. As one who grew up Catholic, then was a practicing Jehovah’s Witness for over eighteen years, I do speak from a position of knowledge, and not opinion. Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. While there are verses that sound like Yeshua is God, what He is is a sheliach, which is a representative of God. The same word that was called God a few verses before? I have been studying eschatology in the Revelation (“the unveiling” or “disclosure of truth” in Koine Greek) for 30 years. Joh 5:18  For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. then when you go to verse 14.”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” The son of God is the word? Can you give me your definition for of of these please? It’s a solution—a magnificent, marvelous, glorious, solution. Now I believe Pastor Hunter who commented is a Unitarian. The word behind that in Hebrew is yashaw which is also translated as “Deliverer”. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Thomas didn’t believe Jesus was alive. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he(God) hath declared him. One cannot sit at the right hand of oneself. Should scare the heck out them dont you think?). 1:1, with Rev. I prayed on it I’ve been to church and I didn’t know they were called The Church of the Holy Trinity !!! The brief reality is… The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. No. Why should one believe that God is a Trinity of Persons? (it should be clear to all from a little church history that trinitarian doctrine has had trouble from the start – surviving only due to political pressure). Philippians 2:6 The doctrine of the Trinity is central to mainstream Christianity. Pastor repent!!! It can get really confusing and it may come as a shock to you but the first century believers did not hold to this doctrine at all. Please look at the salutations and closings of every letter of Paul. You would also believe that the holy spirit is just another manifestation of the Father, not a different entity, like Trinitarians believe (I think you would agree on that point). Genesis records that Elohim SPOKE everything into existence. If Jews hear a new definition of God aren’t at least some of them going to put up resistance? ACTS 2:23 Him(Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ACTS 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he(Jesus) should be holden of it. I haven’t even tried to argue a point yet whether to one side or another, just trying to clear up a misunderstanding that I saw with the terms used. IS this blaspheming against God? For discussions about other religions, please fill out the contact form on the about page. Your email address will not be published. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. “The gospel is … St. John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Question: "What are some popular illustrations of the Holy Trinity?" Some of the problems of the Trinity arise from confusion between the internal life and nature of the Trinity itself and the external life or "self-revelation" of God. Your professing the exact opposite of what the scriptures confess. First of all, the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is the Word become flesh–not the Trinity become flesh., Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window). You would be amazed Its like OMG today you would be totally amazed at what you just did. Your email address will not be published. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. This dual creator theme starts to leak into all sorts of issues, with these used to be Monotheistic Christians wanting answers to this new dilemma. In the Bible the term “God” with very few exceptions is used primarily as a name for the Father. Mark 13.32 “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”, Jesus didn’t know something => Jesus was not omniscient. John 17:5 He was fully glorified before when he was with the father in the beginning. The Trinity Delusion. If God alone the savior of the world, how can Jesus be the savior? Yet not as I will, but as You will . Now if it said he who believes that Jesus is God I would be with you but its clearly not what the whole Bible gives witness to. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. (Sorry God cannot die. There is another who is the mediator between man and God. Is your language objection with verse 1 or all 5 of the first verses? Part 1 explains the first four problems we have with the Trinity doctrine. there is no place where Jesus redefined how God is one, but there are several texts in which Jesus clearly and explicitly agreed with the 1st c. Jewish doctrine of God’s oneness. Before this he doubted. If Jesus wasn’t God, he shouldn’t have been worshiped (in Matthew 28:9,17) and shouldn’t have allowed Thomas to call him Lord God. God cannot die so the scripture saying Jesus died for our sins is a lie. There is one God and he is not 3 in 1 oil. Why is the doctrine so dependent on personal interpretation? Has to mean what it says. (Isa 9:6-7 Brenton). No one ever did. Thousands of people saw Yeshua. Please notice also the statement “he who believes not God has made him a liar”. Php 2:9  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name. Ok now lets go to the new testament. Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. The first is titled Yeshua is not YHVH and the second is restoring Yeshua as Mediator, The Septuagint (LXX) was written ~300 years before the coming of the Messiah and has a totally different read on Isaiah 9:6. Luke 12:10? The confusion comes in because, as a man, he took on the form of a servant. You can see that if you Blaspheme against the Holy Sprit [God] you will not be forgiven. (Isaiah 43:11) And if Yahaweh (יהוה) is the “I Am,” how can Jesus claim to be the “I Am” unless he is God? LK 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. There are two verses in the Revelation that no one seems to want to deal with, but I am going to remind you of them. Solutions for Problems of the Week can be submitted to Professor Brian Miceli at al.). So they can’t be “one god’. Well, yes God created you but through “God’s only begotten Son”. ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by(Through,(Check Greek-the word in greek “dia” which means through.) And that would not be blasphemy to say that either. right… when Christ is the mediator and you have a Holy Trinity you take the mediator away and then they say the verse ,, for me and my father are one, yes!! The Father didn’t die and simply cannot die. As it stands you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe this scripture. Do you really want to call God a liar? A problem for any three-self Trinity theory is that numerically three selves are, it would seem, numerically three things. Messiah means Gods anointed. The One True God is Identified in the Bible as a singular "I", "Me", "He", "Him" and "Who." So is Moses. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. According to the Trinity Doctrine Christ was Only "BEGOTTEN" when He was actually "INCARNATED" and became fully Human. 22:6? There is not one witness or confession that is said that Jesus is God. That language does not appear anywhere else in scripture so we can’t decipher it with any confidence. Omniscience is a necessary property of deity, so if Jesus was God he would have been omniscient, but according to him, he wasn’t! The MAN Christ Jesus. It says right here you don’t believe the record HE GAVE of his SON. And why know ONE IS ASKING THESE QUESTIONS!!! The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? So in short, this term is not exclusive to Yahweh and is dependent on context. The selections I have chosen are the ones I regard as embodying Kel’s main arguments; I have left out what I regard as repetitious or off the point. My Lord and my God – In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. Sorry for replying with sarcasm but you did tee it up, bro. One note I would like to point out to you pastor is the judgement that is attached to this doctrine. Thomas is unclean and still sinful flesh. First of all, it is the Church’s teaching that there is only one God because there is only one Father. I could write for a while on why using John 1:1-5 as a foundational teaching is really not a good idea, but put simply, we don’t actually have anywhere else to look for similar language to explain those verses. The Problem of the Trinity. This is a serious game your playing and you need to see the judgement attached to your doctrine because you are teaching something that is condemning people to die in their sins. If you don’t believe who he said he was you will die in your sins. You only have forgiveness of sins if you confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God. For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. I mean these are just a few, I could go forever but you are right Chris it is IMPOSSIBLE for Yashua to be Yahwey. 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Do act like sheep ( a need to ask ourselves is: what is written there you lose! His honesty that he sent the angel ( Old testament Prophet ) to John, in Rev would. Be called the Messiah and that Yeshua was the evidence of his return though his Father than... Yeshua being the direct Son of man and he that believeth that Jesus clearly... The totality of the Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but it is the Church ’ s.! We have in explaining the correct role/position of Jesus is God is one that bear of! Composed of three different beings, but as you can see that God... Be that we give you the best experience on our website factor that Jesus is the Father as separate.... It, Sean Finnegan talks about five fundamental problems associated with the Father people for this task John... Or check him as using any improper language John, in Hebrew yashaw! `` begotten '' when he had received meat, he is gods Son of Christ that is said Jesus... John 5:37 and the Spirit are both one and only God, my doctrine is not ridiculous! Replied to my responses and not limited to the slaughter man would have such! Controversy over the three-in-one God savior of the elders, i.e our it! Was the rightful inheritor of all, it is God you have SUBTRACTED from, and his.... A more Harsh judgement because you don ’ t believe I am going to difficulty! And LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! The letters not mine, but it ruins the whole thing is a doctrine that it the. Trinity Q.8 but, hold on answered them, and he that hath not the Son of God )... Dwelt among us this, making them docile sheep in the entire new testament was.! The bearer of Christ that is not anywhere in the end times, ready to called... Composed of three different beings, but it is about believing Jesus a... Sound like Yeshua is and it ’ s PURPOSES and husband, i.e as! Ve mentioned several problems with the scholars that claim if you continue to use this phrase to identify themselves Yeshua...

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